Skipper

For once you've hit the nail on the head.
 

Nail on the head. Right wing euro sceptic tories have put uk into European second division .....
 

Even by your standards, this is a silly one.

This discussion really exposes the fault line in this argument. The pro-European lobby (which is not actually pro-European at all, just pro-Brussels, ergo anti-democratic) seems to advocate making a deal with the others, even if they demand something that is clearly not in our interests... the destruction of The City (and make no mistake, that is what they are asking for with this silly unilateral "transaction tax"). Am sorry you have swallowed a line in the left press, but even today, in times of financial ruin, The City contributes 10% of GDP. This could be expected to rise to 17-20% in the unlikely event of an economic recovery any time soon. Quite a price for "harmony"! Even in the face of all of Europe's failures, still they tell us to integrate. But weight of argument now overwhelms you. The public, and Government, now see the reality. We want trade, and nothing else. And this is the point at which we achieve this. We get nothing else from these loonies, and enough is enough.

Am sorry the "pro-Europeans" (I am pro-European, I love many aspects of their cultures, I just hate Brussels diktat and value our self-goverance) don't see this. But their loyalty has always been to a "projekt" rather than our national interest. What has changed? The "projekt" has been exposed as the end, rather than as a means to an end. Hence the ridiculous effort to save a currency that is certain to fail. We were only ever "in" Europe for economic reasons. Now that Europe has failed economically, that fallacy is exposed. I suspect our exit will be swift now.

The argument about who Obama will ring...frankly who gives a stuff? A nation of sixty million will never wield the kind of influence we did (and haven't for some time). We have never had any influence in Europe in any case(one of 27, how dull!), and our politicians have only ever achieved opt-outs and so on, rather than dictate the agenda. What's the point? Why not opt out of all their stupid rules? I doubt Obama will ring anyone in the EU when the Italians crumble in February (or sooner).

A new era. We can be more competitive without their stupid rules, we can continue to trade (Norway?) with all the world, and we can make democratic decisions in this country rather than be dictated bureaucratic decisions from Brussels, Frankfurt or wherever else they locate (Nurnberg?). Sorry you don't like it, but I suspect the press and the public will love this. Cameron just arrived.
 

Well - perhaps Skipper. But that all depends on one thing, doesn't it - the Euro surviving the next twelve months. And since the treaty they are negotiating appears to be the equivalent of a sticking plaster on a severed neck, that isn't necessarily the most likely outcome.

I would have said, from here, there is only one way of rescuing the Euro - that is, to only allow member states to borrow from the ECB, who will issue debt accordingly and raise it on the markets underwritten by the whole lot. But for all the brouhooha, that offer is not on the table. Instead, we have vague "sanctions" for those who breach rules on borrowing in times of prosperity. Yeah, great. In case it has slipped what passes for the minds of politicians, there ain't no prosperity out there. The immediate crisis is of debts already run up.

So does Cameron's veto matter? If I'm right, no, because in twelve months there will likely be no EU. Of course, I could be wrong.

And on a personal level, it seems ridiculous to me that a full treaty change that could theoretically affect all of the 27 is required to make sure that 17 hapless twerps do as they are told.
 

Please excuse a longish rant.

Judging by the French news sites I look at, the other 26 are mightily relieved to be rid of Cameron. Now they can get on with the serious business of protecting the euro against the international speculators who would happily destroy it.

For many of these wealthy international financial dabblers the motivation must be similar to that which seems to drive Murdock and other press barons to be anti-EU. They recognise that a truly united Europe could regulate their activities in ways that individual governments are too small to do. But perhaps at last we may end up with an EU capable of challenging the laissez faire US attitude that has brought us to this financial crisis (from which many of the speculators have profited handsomely).

But Britain's influence, at least until we get a change of government, will be close to zero. Our fate is to become like a like a sad grumpy old uncle with an empty glass whom everyone ignores at Christmas.

And it's the blooming Lib Dems, who always claimed to be the most ‘pro Britain's active involvement in the EU’ party, who must shoulder much of the blame. No one forced them to enter a coalition with a bunch of braying eurosceptics, they could’ve left them to form a minority government. I guess the allure of ministerial cars and seats at the Cabinet Table proved too much for these pusillanimous souls.

One day Britain will join the euro and will eventually become part of the Schengen Area but I fear I might by then be too old to take advantage…
 

Interesting post,just about as far away from reality as usual.

BTW

Knowing how slavishly you comb the pages of the Grauniad, perhaps you could point me to their full & frank apology for their despicable behaviour in deleting texts from the "hacked" mobile phone of Milly Dowler. Oddly enough, this story appears to have bypassed the BBC as well.

How peculiar.

Not.

Kind regards